Posts made by grofire

@Sepoy hello there,

Talents felt like a major letdown. I was very excited when I bought my first talent as I assumed it would be a character defining moment. Instead, it was a 2.5% cooldown reduction. Literally shaved my latency off the cooldown. That was quite the downer. Big enough that I wondered out of town for a bit and just logged off

there is several post about this issue. some players, like me, thinks that the game in its current state have no progression, and without that the game is just boring and unfun, like you just logging of.
and some players think this is how the should be.
thanks for giving your feedback.

@Kralith said in Siege Time outside of towns primetime?:

11pm UTC

ya its 2am for me

@GamerSeuss said in Few In-Game Suggestions:

@grofire And not all Fun games include progress.

Ultima Online, ,arguably the first major MMO to come out didn't really progress beyond a certain point, as @spoletta said, yet people came back for years and years, and there are still people playing the game today.

Another example is SecondLife. SecondLife is a social game in the same league as The Sims, but other than amassing some in-game wealth, there really isn't too much progression in it. Second Life is a beloved game, that is played by many groups still. IMVU is a clone of SecondLife, and so it is probably similar (don't know, didn't need a clone)

Think of games like Pokemon games, not the Gotta Catch'em All ones, what about Pokemon Safari. A HUGELY popular member of the Pokemon franchise, that didn't really have levels or anything. You just wanted to collect all the pokemon...and then, once you did, you kept playing for the joy of playing, no progression needed.

pokemon as hundreds of pokemon to get and fill the book, what do you call that if not progress?
sims you start from a blank page and make a city isn't it a progress ?
i didn't play UO but you said, that beyond some point there was no progress and then people stop playing regularly, and would play on and off....
progress can be in different ways, but no progress is no fun.

@spoletta every game of dota is a vertical instance as i already shown by this example:

you start every game at level 1 and go up to 30.
level 1 is extremely weak, so weak that, 1 level 30 can kill probably infinite amount of level 1 players.
or take a real situation mid will be level 9 while offlane will be level 5 or 6, and level 9 will win every time.

maybe you just do not understand what is vertical progression ?

and progress many times mean fun... progress = fun...
so i do not see your point.

@spoletta said in Few In-Game Suggestions:

@grofire I said 1 week to give a number. Personally after 1 week and half of play I'm out of the young player protection, so that could be a good reference.

As for examples, the first ones that come to mind are UO and LoA. After you were "done" with your char, you played it for years without going after some kind of powerup, but simply because you were engaged in the competition. Be it PKing, guild competitions, trading or whatever you liked doing, you played day after day without any mind to vertical scaling.

didn't play them so maybe some one else that did can come join the discussion.

Also, don't forget that this game is an hybrid between an MMO and a MOBA, and in MOBA there is absolutely no kind of vertical scaling, yet players have been playing it for 10 years. If the game is fun, there is no need for that kind of carrot.

MOBA is the worst example for your point, lets take dota 2, you start every game at level 1 and go up to 30.
level 1 is extremely weak, so weak that, 1 level 30 can kill probably infinite amount of level 1 players.
or take a real situation mid will be level 9 while offlane will be level 5 or 6, and level 9 will win every time.
so dota 2 is basically the ultimate vertical progression game. so as different MOBAs.

@spoletta said in Few In-Game Suggestions:

By new player I don't mean literally a char that was just created. We have a young protection in place afterall. Someone who has played for 1 week has that minimum amount of talents and a few sets of skills already.

so you say 1 week, now that you put a number lets play with this number why 1 week and not 1 day ? or 1 month?
since you decided a 1 week character should be able to play against 2 years players ?

Also, vertical progression and longevity are not strictly related. While there aren't many games without any progression, there are a lot where you reach the cap quite fast and then you play for different reason than progress. As long as there's some kind of content in game to keep you in it (and for sandboxes that content kind of creates itself), you don't need a continous vertical progress.

please give examples, i never seen this, maybe they max level but not the strength levels.

@spoletta i understand where you coming from, but it can't be in the real world for 2 reasons:

1. players will not stay 2 years to play a game when they are the same as they started, with no vertical progression.
2. the skill system is already broken the horizontal progression, a new player start the game with a few skills, lets say fire bolt, and old player got the fire resistance skill, and there you go the new player will not be able to win the old player, he will lose 99% of the times, do you suggest to remove the fire resistance skill?

@spoletta well as i said to @GamerSeuss, i do not know when you joined, but from the start the game didn't been no vertical achievement, it was changed only after people paid for the kickstarter, like i did!
and now after testing its very obvious i was right then, its crystal clear that with no vertical achievement this game is boring and not fun.

@GamerSeuss your wrong, from the first day i joined this game, pre kickstarter, the main focus from the dev was NO GRIND, no body talked about no vertical achievement (and i showed this in the skill image i shared on this thread), the first time the vertical achievement was addressed and changed was after the kickstarter and it raised a storm, by me and others that left since then, seen this game going very different place from what that was promised, you can see this on this post.

so no im not the one that "back a game, then immediately try to change a core concept" as you said, the no vertical achievement people are the one who do.

@GamerSeuss look, im all forward for testing different skill, and balancing all, so nothing will be too strong.
but that is not what @spoletta saying, he do not want synergy between talents, so there will not be vertical differences, his fine with talents being one build thing, in that case you can probably get 10 out of the 60 talents, like in this test, and that is shallow and boring.

i want vertical achievement, i want that there will be difference between old player and new player, and i want new player to be able to do all on the day they log in the game for the first time, doesn't matter if its pve or pvp or crafting. and most important i do not think this 2 are opposing to each other.

@GamerSeuss said in Few In-Game Suggestions:

the problem here is as @spoletta said, the person with the 10 stacking talents should not automatically decide the fight before the first blow is swung just because they are good at synergy.

and that why we balance the game, so no one build will be stronger from other....
but saying: "since this way its not balance then we just remove the skills/talent/enchantment" is a bad practice that would make sure we all stay in the same build all the time we play, and it will be very little time, since we all will get bored.

@spoletta i read and still do not agree with you.

@spoletta do you really do not see the issue with what you just said ?
if talents will not be able to be use by the same build, then no one will get them... people will take only 10 talent that help them and the rest will be worthless.... this is bad design and sorry i do not agree with you at all.

@spoletta ok since you gave example, i will show why i think your wrong:
for example lets take the skill you talked about, the evasion talent, this one:
some one that would read your post might fought its a good skill (and it might be for a single build only) since you wrote

evasion with 1 h are probably at the right level.

but reading this skill you get more info on that... you need MELEE weapon and KEPING YOUR OFF HAND FREE
so anyone that do not meet this explicit condition in his build can't use this.... it force to a single build path and do not synergy with nothing that a mage might want... maybe you feel its good since you build this specific build, but for the rest this is shit.

@spoletta said in Few In-Game Suggestions:

Yes, players want some sort of vertical progression, and that's what talents are for. You need to find the balance on those.
Previously they were excessively poweful. Now I feel that they are still a bit too powerful, but others have different opinions, so we are probably near the right compromise.

sorry i just do not agree, i think its so weak now, that even when i had KP, i didn't know on what to use, all seemed weak and out of synergy in my eyes.

i will take it even further, maybe the last test talents was ok, but i would put even stronger talents to see their effect.

@GamerSeuss i hear what you say, and as i said i do not mind bending the kickstarter terms and get little, or finite as you called it, grind, since we see it is needed.
and since we see it is needed, now you need to understated that its the same for horizontal progression, the game can't be full horizontal progression, since that just boring... and:

I never said all must be 'equal' I said that a brand new player, and a 2 year old veteran, both naked or in the same gear, should have pretty much the same effectiveness against the mobs out there. The only real difference, and this is vertical over horizontal progress, is that the veteran has more options about how they go about it. They've unlocked more skills, so can use different movesets, but all the relative power is the same, give or take (it is hard to go exactly the same, of course, but by giving a decent set of starter skills to everyone at character creation, you may never need to unlock another skill if you don't want to. Same with Talents)

its just not enough! they need to play with the horizontal vs vertical slider too, they need to find the balance between achievements to work.

and just rememberת while its cool that a new player can join an old player in game and have fun, and old player need to keep having fun to stay in the game, and this is not what we got nowץ the game is a week barely on, and already most players stop playing, its just not fun.

@GamerSeuss said in Few In-Game Suggestions:

@grofire They may have made some changes from what they said pre-Kickstarter, but that doesn't violate anything.

Once they started taking investment money (Kickstarter) they pretty much set a level of expectation that they have to think LONG and HARD about changing. Money has changed hands, so now the investors (Kickstarter backers) can expect to be consulted directly if any major promise of the game at that point is being considered to be changed. As the main promise of Fractured, probably central to most backers, was the ability for a brand new player, gear aside, to be able to stand side by side with a 2 year old player and each do meaningful contributions to a battle. Any vertical growth must therefore be very very miniscule at best to meet this criteria.They also promised that the KP system would not simply be another Experience Point system by another name.

lets set the record straight about 2 points:
1 - they already violate what they say in the kickstarter, since they talked about the grind:

Levels, skills, achievements. These classic progression patterns always have one thing in common: the grind. In Fractured, an innovative take on horizontal progression allows you to enjoy the freedom and level playing field of a MOBA without losing the persistence and sense of progression of a real MMO.

and every one that played this test know that the grind is real, and its crystal clear for whom that play solo!

2 - horizontal progression does not mean you can't have vertical achievements, its your wild assumption that all must be equal.
and let me show example how they could have done this:
a player go on the wild and find a monster and killed her, he will get all the skills and knowledge about that monster ( NO GRIND ), this skill have 3 level of power, to get this levels, the player need to find the places and do some tasks.
this way they have what they promised, no grind, and reward exploration while still have vertical achievements.

the main issue that all the people talking about horizontal progression forgot, its the reason for the horizontal progression, the NO GRIND, its not that they wanted to remove vertical achievements!

@GamerSeuss said in Few In-Game Suggestions:

@BECKFAST
To give this to you would be to violate the promise they made during Kickstarter.

i do not know when you joined the game, i was here before the kickstarter, and as i see the game now they violate a lot from what they promised.

@spoletta im not sure what monsters you fight and how, but i have less KP then you, about 49k, and i have scholar items + 1 and enchant amulet, i have several skill that i wanted to get for the different builds, and some talents, but as been said, i felt nothing had synergy.
i do not know how you PVE but if you solo 1 monster at a time, and need to wait every time you kill just to get back HP and mana, then yes it can be done, but that boring and not fun... that it all IMO.

@spoletta i understand what you saying, but do not feel that true, i tried several build, and different skills, most i didn't enjoy and the one i did, was very weak, and nothing from the talent tree or enchantment helped.
i tried to go mage thief build with high damage single target skill high evasion, lower mana cost, and reduce casting time, nothing on the tree help me. next i tried multi target build getting the chain lightning skill and go for damage and survival build, and again nothing clicked, that seemed that there is no synergy from skills to enchantment to talent.
and every build change was so hard, and i just hated it. i found the game in this state unplayable.