@finland said in Feature Spotlight #6 - PvP, Alignment & Crime:
@phaethonas I don't care about economy, I just care to kill stuff for example.
The irony of that comment is over 9000!
I, the "ganker", "the pvper who wants to ruin everyone game", care about the economy (and as such the game's success) and the defender of the care bears (Finland) cares only for killing stuff!!
Oh the irony! I adore irony.
@neves said in Weekly Drawings:
Ok. Not to offend the artist out there, but the ability to draw is earning the right to play the game?!
Can all the fans and the developers work together for a solution where our mmo abilities in combat and knowledge, also in community, give the minority of players a chance to balance those points?
weekly drawings and not weekly drawings. I was confused at the beginning as well.
@morridin Oh, I know that one, I read about it! You can go with carts, wagons and the like to another planet through a stargate and return to your planet via the same stargate as long as it is active. If you miss that window you will be stranded to the other planet and you will be able to return without what you have on your cart
@finland said in Feature Spotlight #6 - PvP, Alignment & Crime:
I'm lolling. You want kill people not gathering. Otherwise you go on Arboreus to get your resources in 30mins. So stop talk about resources. Tartaros got resources too that are not on Arboreus and will be hard to get them for beastmen.
Remeber that you don't know how hard will be travel. 30 mins per day means: do I zerg? or do I try to gather few resources I may need?
No, actually I came to Fractured because I want to kill NPCs! If I want to go and kill people I will go to a pure pvp game, these are being made at the moment.
That said, it was evident from day 1 that care bears wanted pvpers to be marked as the bad guys who only want to gank people. Well, that is untrue. A pvper can't have much fun by ganking easy targets, pvpers want challenges.
The care bears got what they wanted, pvers to be marked as the "bad guys" and have a very hard time at Arboreus. The irony of that (I LOVE IRONY!) is that by doing so two things happened;
The pvpers now have a great challenge in their hands and it is called "Arboreus invasions". As I said, that incentivises pvpers to go and invade Arboreus en masse because we (pvpers) love challenges.
The economy gets unbalanced. No matter how many times you say it, the facts remains facts. And the fact is that 30 minutes are not enough for me to go and gather mats. Remember, I will be in an unknown area, where I will have to tackle both debuffs and the "wild life"/NPCs, where I won't know where the harvesting nodes or however you wanna call them are, and to actually gather the material (e.g. chop wood). That is literally impossible. As such players will band together in order to tackle the challenging mechanics the game will offer to them.
@finland said in Feature Spotlight #6 - PvP, Alignment & Crime:
@phaethonas talents/abilities are not related to the gear like Albion this means you can fight naked. Good point to avoid grinding in a game where you can lose things. If the game will be unbalanced somehow well give the right feedback
The game is getting unbalanced and I am giving the right feedback, as proven by the support I am getting. You just don't agree with that. But yeah, we know who you are. You disagree with a lot of things about Fractured and you want it to be another game. You have outright and explicitly said so.
@prometheus said in Feature Spotlight #6 - PvP, Alignment & Crime:
@phaethonas said in Feature Spotlight #6 - PvP, Alignment & Crime:
are we talking about real money/Dynamight Gold here or in-game currency?
In-game currency.
Good to know
@phaethonas said in Feature Spotlight #6 - PvP, Alignment & Crime:
First of all I find the 30 minutes restriction too much. More importantly though, here are some questions; OK after 30 minutes I am kicked out, how long till I am able to return? Do I have a debuff not allowing me to return, or I may start preparations returning immediately. When first going to Arboreus, where do I land? When I am kicked out and then return (whether this is after 1 hour or 24 hours) where do I return to? Will I return to the area I was kicked out from?
You're always able to return. There are some default landing points, others you can learn to open, but you can't just go anywhere you like - just a brief explanation here. As for the others things you've said, remember that we can always adjust the type, duration and intensity of maluses / limitations to have things working as planned - that hostile PvP on Arboreus is an exceptional occurrence, not the norm. This will all be defined during Alpha testing!
Also good to know.
That said have in mind that many aspects of the economy ("working economy" if you like) won't be clear till players are actually playing the game, with all features/mechanics in play, and start harvesting, crafting, trading, looting etc.
So, even if during Alpha you won't be seeing any of the problems I mentioned, don't think you won't be seeing them when the game will go live. As a matter of fact I would say you will encounter these problems after a few weeks, post launch. So either consider "learning" from other games or having an extensive pre-launch beta. Like an open/free promotional beta for 1 month before release, then wipe everything (if all goes well and no changes are needed) and launch the game. Or something on that line, anyhow.
The important thing is for you to have understood that if you go too harsh on the demons aka FFA pvpers, that would hurt the game.
As I have said so many times, we can't have everything in this life, we can't please everyone, we must make compromises. You can't attract care-bears as well as "gankers" as these two groups want the exact opposite things. As a matter of fact you can't attract either as long as you want both pvpers and pvers. If you have gankers, you won't be able to please non care-bear pvers and if you have care-bear pvers you won't be able to please pvpers who won't mind not "ganking" (non gankers pvpers).
In order for Fractured to work at the very least the following are needed;
Pvpers to accept that restrictions at pvp will be placed. Each planet will have different set of pvp restrictions.
Pvers to accept that sometimes they may be killed. Depending where (which planet) they are, these "sometimes" will be "more" or "less" and will be within a different context. But they have to accept that nowhere they will be 100% safe, not even close to 90%, although these numbers are completely arbitrary.
And finally, you (the devs) to understand that you can't please everyone and all the times. We (the MMO players) want games with identity and not games that will try everything. Games that will try to be both sandbox and themepark, both open world and instanced, etc. Having to reconcile pvp and pve in a functional way is hard enough and there are significant chances that you will fail. If you want to have better chances, you have to draw a line on the sand. And the sooner, the better.
@finland said in Feature Spotlight #6 - PvP, Alignment & Crime:
@phaethonas said in Feature Spotlight #6 - PvP, Alignment & Crime:
You have said so yourself!
That was before read the last spotlight. And when I said I want to change was something more like I want let them avoid to fail. I'm giving good feedback to make a longevity game with a good population. Niche games with your wishes are a good way to kill a game. The is not out we have years to test it and give feedback. I think that we can try to have bot kind of payers playign togeter with the right restrinctions.
You still are arguing at changing Fractured while you keep claiming that you don't! Is it so hard for you to understand that Fractured's devs want to make a niche game?!
They outright say that they want to do things others haven't tried as well as things that others have tried and have failed at doing. The whole key concept of three different planets, with three different races, with three different "rulesets", with three different economies is niche!
I have been telling you for quite some time, and I don't mean that as an insult, I mean that as a friendly suggestion; You are following the wrong game.
Fractured is not the game you like, this is why you want it to be something entirely different. Fractured won't be like GW2, ESO, WoW and other games you have said that are "successful" and whose path you want Fractured to follow. Fractured's devs are thinking out of this box and this was clear from day 1.
So you want to help? Do so within the lines of the game the devs want to make. You are suggesting to them to make a GW2 clone basically. They don't want to make a GW2 clone!
I have never said to remove that needs. You can just travel to gather tho. You are missing the fact that the main purpose is that an not going to arboreus just to kill beasts. Like the purpose to play on Syndesia is the siege. Tartaros is the killing spree.
And I told you so many times that with; a) a ton of debuffs on me, b) the "wildlife"/NPCs hunting me and c) the 30 minute restriction, it is impossible for me to go from point A (spawn point) to point B (where I will gather mats), especially since.....I don't know where point B is! Assuming that after 7 times that I tried to go to Arboreus, I finally found where point B is, I will still have to a) go from point A to point B (which may take 10 minutes of "walking"), b) all the while fight the "wildlife"/NPCs that will be attacking me, c) have a ton of debuffs on me and then finally, actually harvesting, and all that in under 30 minutes!
Have you ever played an MMORPG before? Cause if you describe the above to someone who has, he/she will tell you that this is impossible to be done.
tl;dr Behind the "You can just travel to gather tho" has a context which you are not taking into consideration.
@vengu said in Feature Spotlight #6 - PvP, Alignment & Crime:
@phaethonas said in Feature Spotlight #6 - PvP, Alignment & Crime:
Still I can't see these "fur, hides. carapaces" etc replacing the unique materials Arboreus (or even Syndesia) will have.
The devs have stated before materials won't be strictly better or worse, just different. Who cares that your bow is made from Tartaros bone instead of Arboreus wood when the stats are the same. If anything, the fact that every planet has its own resources makes the economy in Fractured work. If all planets had the same resources, then yes Arboreus would be the easiest place to get those resources. But since Tartaros has its own resources, they will have something unique to offer on the market that the PvE planet doesn't have.
Sure, if each each planet's economy is self-sustainable then you will be correct. If my bow is made of "Bone tier 7" which is as strong as "Steel", then, yes there will be no problem.
The problem arises with your assumption that this will be the case.
Although it is not clear at the moment (and it should be clarified, @Prometheus) it is implied that each planet's economy won't be self-sustainable. If each planet's economy was/will be self-sustainable then there is no incentive to move between the planets, a key concept of the game. As travelling between planets is a key concept of the game, it can be assumed that each planet's economy won't be self sustainable.
I have been telling you for quite some time, and I don't mean that as an insult, I mean that as a friendly suggestion; You are following the wrong game.
Considering how hard you're trying to change Fractured, have you ever considered you might be the one following the wrong game? You're telling people "This is how Fractured should be, and because you don't like it, you should leave". You're literally telling people to stop following Fractured because they don't agree with your suggestions, even though your suggestions are just that, suggestions.
If for example someone asks me; "I want to play arenas/instances pvp, is Fractured good for me?" What do you want me to say? Yes?! Fractured won't have instances! Not even pve instances!
And I told you so many times that with; a) a ton of debuffs on me, b) the "wildlife"/NPCs hunting me and c) the 30 minute restriction, it is impossible for me to go from point A (spawn point) to point B (where I will gather mats), especially since.....I don't know where point B is! Assuming that after 7 times that I tried to go to Arboreus, I finally found where point B is, I will still have to a) go from point A to point B (which may take 10 minutes of "walking"), b) all the while fight the "wildlife"/NPCs that will be attacking me, c) have a ton of debuffs on me and then finally, actually harvesting, and all that in under 30 minutes!
It sounds to me that you know things about Fractured's gathering system that we don't know. Care to share?
What do you mean? I am describing what is already known.
Debuffs, Arboreus wildlife attacking "evil" players, 30 minute restrictions are confirmed at this spotlight.
Prometheus confirmed that Arboreus will be Terra Incognita for the other races, including Demons. He also confirmed that initially you will be spawning at pre-determined spawn points. Other spawn points will be becoming available as you reveal them.
It makes sense that these predetermined spawn points won't be inside a forest at which you will be gathering wood. They will be 3 km away, towards the East. As you will be spawning at an unknown area, you have 25% chance of going at the correct direction. So, it is possible that you may be getting further away from the forest, instead of closer, cause you are heading towards the West! In 30 minutes time, assuming that you are still alive, you will be 6 km away from the forest/wood gathering area. As such, you are sent back to Tartaros and then you make preparations to go back at Arboreus. This time you head....North. Well that was a mistake as well. Even if you head East (towards the forest), you may need 40 minutes to walk the distance of 3 km, or you may need just 10 minutes (per se/walking), but as the wildlife is attacking you and you are forced to fight your way through, you will need 40 minutes. Oops, still you didn't reach your target destination. Even if you make it to the forest in 25 minutes, you will only have 5 minutes of grinding wood.
Bottom line is that all these restrictions, combined, are creating a great problem.
There is a key point here; This will be a problem assuming that each planet's economy is not self sustainable. If you are correct and each planet's economy is self sustainable, then there will be no problem.
As I have said before;
The solutions are three;
remove pvp altogether and make the game only for care bears
3) remove the restrictions at Arboreus, or rather loosen them. Yes, this will drive the care bears away, but as I have said before, not all pvers are care bears.
That said, I don't think it makes much sense to have three self sustainable economies and a mechanic of travelling. I don't see the point on that.
PS
#2 is about what I am calling in this comment as "self sustainable economy"
@tulukaruk said in Feature Spotlight #6 - PvP, Alignment & Crime:
@phaethonas i think you misunderstand what Open World means. Open World Definition
It doesn't have anything to do with instances. Single player Open World games are basically whole single instance games
So you wanna tell me that a game that will have instances (as instanced pvp and instanced pve) will be a game in which
a player can roam freely through a virtual world and is given considerable freedom in choosing how or when to approach objectives
I find that hard to believe.
I suppose you may say that they are not mutually exclusive, which I suppose that in theory it is true. In practice though it is impossible to have both.
Fractured's devs want to make an open world, sandbox game, that much is 100% sure and they have said so explicitly. If they add instances (either pve or pvp) it is argued that they will attract more people. Even if we assume that the two crowds/groups are completely seperate, and as such the open world gameplay doesn't affect negatively the population of the instanced gameplay and vice versa, the mechanics, features etc that are employed in each case are different. For example GW2's WvW (although not open world -enough- by many people's definition) is quite different than instanced pvp gameplay wise. As such different builds are considered "meta" for each case.
The problem that rises with that, is similar to a pve vs pvp problem. When a game has both pve and pvp then its classes (or otherwise for classless games) need to be balanced for both. Balancing all classes (or otherwise many/all builds for classless games) is a difficult task on its own, balancing them twice (once per pve and once for pvp) is at least two time difficult (if not more). This brings the whole whinning of one group complaining of "ruining" their class (or otherwise for classless games) because the other group needed the changes. For example; "you ruined my pve monk because the pvp monk was unbalanced". Developers are trying to solve or even circumvent entirely that problem either by introducing a pvp exclusive stat (e.g. expertise at SWTOR) or by having entirely different pvp abilities that share little when compared with the same classes' pve abilities.
So, if you want to cater to everyone and have everything (open world pvp, open world pve, instanced pve, instanced pvp) then you have to balance the ability system four times!!
So, not only will this mean that the devs will have to balance the ability system four times (and we are talking about an indie studio here and not Blizzard), but also the game will lose its identity.
Either your restaurant will have an identity (e.g. Chinese) or you will cater everything and your restaurant will not have an identity. Same goes for pretty much everything and most certainly it is true for MMOs.
Fractured's devs have made themselves clear. They want a game with identity. They are making a niche game. Their game will be open world and sandbox. If they add things; a) they will have made the making of the game many times more difficult, time consuming and expensive, b) the game will lose its intended identity.
My suggestion/advice to them is to stand on their ground and make the niche game they have envisioned. Sure, they will not attract WoW's numbers, not in the slightest. They will have made the game they desire though and I am sure some players will like their game (if they manage to deliver) and their game will be sustainable.
@dagimir said in Player bounty boards (PVP):
I would love bounty boards set for people. Basically some jerk keeps killing everyone or a guild decides to be murder hobos, you set a bounty with money and upon job completion the people who successfully did the bounty got the money or item.
I approve!!
Although most people who will put notices will be salty beastmen who put notices at demons who invaded their planet.
The irony on that? Beastmen won't be able to collect that bounty, probably another demon will upon return to the demon planet! lol
@jetah said in Feature Spotlight #6 - PvP, Alignment & Crime:
@phaethonas not to mention DS said they'd have 400 abilities, so they'd have to balance all combinations. or homanzied the damage so that 20 ability's are the 'same damage but GFX is different'.
Good point that I left out for simplicity.
Another way to "balance" classes (or otherwise for classless games) is to make the 400 different abilities, basically 20 abilities.
If you want to have diversity gameplay wise, you will have a hard time balancing the different builds. This is why you end up with "mirror classes" and the like.
People need to understand what the devs are trying to do, and what the devs are trying to do is not easy.
@tulukaruk said in Feature Spotlight #6 - PvP, Alignment & Crime:
@phaethonas in instanced PvP there is a difference between small scale instance and large scale. In non-instanced you have to balance for both as you will have both huge sieges and small scale skirmishes.
So, as I said instanced/open world pvp are different and need different balancing.
It's a bit different with PvE but not that much and balance in PvE isn't as important as in PvP.
So, despite any considerations you may have, you are basically are telling us that different balancing will be required as well. It may be easier, or not as important, but it will be required.
That said, you are wrong. If PvE balancing isn't important people wouldn't be raging when devs were trying to balance classes for pvp and in the process they were "ruining the pve balance".
And exactly as @Finland said in open world pvp you have to build for PvP not PvE.
(In general) That makes no sense whatsoever. That would make sense only in one case actually. Assuming an open world game in which you can either pvp or pve. Then yes, it makes sense to always have the pvp build active. But this isn't the case with Fractured. The pvp/pve ratio/balance (call it what you like) will be different at each planet.
At Tartaros it will make sense to always be on a pvp build, where at Arboreus it won't, especially with the harsh restrictions that have been announced. Even without them though, it still would be better to be on a pve build instead of a pvp build. At Syndesia it would make sense to use a hybrid (of sorts) or to have two (one for pvp and one for pve) and swap accordingly, if the game allows that.
@prometheus said in Kickstarter Update - Pledge Packs:
- VIP membership includes bonuses such as additional Learning Slots, increased Knowledge Point gains, discounts on Store items and unique cosmetic rewards for accumulated VIP time. It's only time savers and cosmetic stuff - we're not selling power there!
Excuse me, but what?????
How are you not selling power? Knowledge is power. Like, literally, for your game.
I am in favor of subscription, I am on the record on that, but not optional subscription, if it gives power. Sure, a VIP membership that gives discounts and unique cosmetic rewards, won't be p2w, as long as it won't be possible to be traded in-game.
And that brings the question; Will it be possible to be traded in-game for in-game items?
Is there anything missing
Yes, explanations as to what "VIP membership" is and what the "Carpenter NPC" does.
Speaking of, the "Carpenter NPC" needs to go as well.
Your game will have a player driven economy. This means that anything that will give a boost at quality of life (such as the carpenter), in exchange for real money, will be pay2win.
See it this way. I don't pay for the carpenter, and I will have to deal with the decay issue "normally". Whether this is doing a quest to recruit a carpenter, buy the carpenter with in-game gold, do the repairs myself, etc, etc. Regardless, I will have either less time to play other parts of the game, that will give me power (e.g. exploring and acquiring knowledge points), or I will have less in-game gold, which will mean that I will have to buy 1 axe and not 1 axe and 1 shield.
In the long term, mechanics/features like that, became pay2win, especially if these will be found at the cash shop as well. If they are limited to the kickstarter campaign, their pay2win potential will be minimized by the fact that they will be rare. It will be there though, don't fool yourselves.
And this becomes absolutely clear when you offer the "Lifetime free Carpenter NPC contract". For 375 euro, someone can just skip a mechanic/feature of the game, which is designed as time and in-game gold sink.
Similarly, the
Construction Plan for an exclusive āFounder Cottageā
Construction Plan for an exclusive āFounder Villaā
Construction Plan for an exclusive āFounder Palaceā
Construction Plan for an exclusive āFounder Manorā
Construction Plan for an exclusive āFounder Castleā
These need an explanation as well. Generally, you offer things which you are not explaining what they are. We (forum lurkers) have questions about them, imagine people who will learn about your game now.
1 additional character slot
Explain people, explain. How many slots will we have for free? It is one thing to have 10 for free and quite another to have only 1. Also, will character slots be available at the cash shop?
1 set of Crafting Stations to be placed and used in your plot of land
cough pay2win cough
Your game will have a player driven economy. Depending how easy it is to make/acquire these crafting stations, this item can be turned into pay2win. Also it depends at how the crafting station works. For example, does the crafting station produce an item while "un-manned", or is it required to be "manned"? If the crafting station does not require to be manned in order to produce an item, then I can totally imagine a whale, buying 10 ARTISAN packs, paying 750 euro and getting 10 crafting stations! Voila, right from the beggining the whale will have a great advantage, at becoming rich(er). And as your game will have a player driven economy; rich = powerful. The rich (in-game) person will be able to buy gear with stats easier than the poor (in-game) person. If you link somehow fake money to real money, then you will also get; The rich(er) (real life) person will be able to buy gear with stats (advantage/power), easier than the poor(er) (real life) person. And that is the definition of pay2win.
1 Mule mount plus a Wagon to carry heavy materials
sigh
Your game will have a player driven economy, stop giving people things that will make them richer. You are gifting power for real money. That is called pay2win.
Do you think prices are fair? If not, how would you change them?
They are absolutely fair.
What pack would you be interested in?
I am not sure I am interested in the game anymore! I hate pay2win(ish) games.
Is there anything missing youād like to see ā or perhaps something you think is ātoo muchā?
I am not seeing anything missing. I consider the pay2win elements "too much".
Do you think Foundation Points should be included as reward?
Yes, although they should not be given excessively. For example, they should range from 500 to 5000 (x2.5 of the ambassador weekly drawing) the most. Also, if someone buys three packs (one that gives 5k and two that give 1k), he/she should get only 5k points. Each person should be awarded once.
