What's the question exactly?
If you imply that marksmanship and hunting cannot be two different skill trees, I think they can. Marksmanship can be the general tree related to bows, while hunting can gives buffs and passives against creatures that can be skinned (so only pve; it can even have a bit economical side if it improves the gathering yield for skinning).
I also see daily rewards as a chore.
What about events that span over longer periods of time (1-3months irl) base on game lore, in which you mostly get cosmetic items? You don't have to login every day, you just have to get some achievements over the course of the event.
@asspirin I also feel HP needs a bit more explanation. At first it seemed like a mechanic to ensure that you can get up after being killed in PVE (so tanks don't have to run back 10min to the spot when they die), but to be executed in PVP (so deaths are more impactful in pvp than in other games where you can get resurected). After playing the game a bit, in reality the whole thing is not so fun - you kill a few mobs, rest, kill a few mobs, rest and so on.
@Jetah The reason I disagree with you two is because both of you proved over and over you have no idea what you're talking about, yet your main argument revolve around those points.
@Gothix It's unwise not to learn from problems faced by a very similar game.
Bottom line is this thread was pretty much close by Protheus' response in the first page. Have a good day! 
Ok folks (Gothix and Jetah), I'm done talking with you on this matter because nothing constructive comes out of this. The problem is simple, you only think of the novelty of some features you never experienced and not how it would realistically impact the gameplay.
The last thing I have to say is this: "no rules because sandbox" was very common in Albion, until it eventually led to massive monopoly and more and more people changed their minds: game being borderline unplayable if you weren't in one of the few huge alliances, a handful of people owning all the town plots (out of which one owned 40%), and then to this. People complained about these so much that last year SBI implemented a lot of features aimed at limiting the size of alliances and town plot monopolies, nerfed the major ganking mount and introduced a bunch of escape mounts.
@Jetah
First, I'd argue that's not the main point of "settling" to a region. The main reason is the local markets and stashes. This is very little an advantage for locals, and very much an advantage for gankers.
Second, from my experience with zvz your opinion is incorrect. As I explained a few times already you don't need to survey the whole map, but only a few screens away. Chokepoints can hurt you only when you pass them. There will be zergs without scouts at first, but they will either disband or get forced to improve because nobody likes to donate gear.
@Gothix
Well, ganking will be one of the major complaining reasons and in this game it's going to be extra frustrating since you lose all the gear on death. Also, what kind of "specific group of people" do you think I'm part of? Unlike the people I argue with here, I used to play Albion in a crystal ranked guild...
@asspirin
I wonder if it's going to be a directional defensive skill or just a buff.
@Recoil
I have no thoughts on this subject, but right now even in light armor you get considerable mana cost penalties. Clothes are pretty much the only option if you wanna be a mage and if you need to be a bit tankier, there's a self buff called mage armor.
I see farming in the first screenshot. I take it farming will come soon?
Ty for the points & congratz everyone!
Oh, they finally add archery skills. 
To me, shocking lash sounds the coolest. It sounds like a single target nuke, maybe with a small CC/interrupt.
From there, judging by the name, shockwave is probably going to be the most impactful in zvz.
@asspirin said in New skills:
In love with Infectious burst (if it does what i think it does), and Totem of decay
What do you think it does? To me it sounds like an aoe poison that can only be cast on (dead) corpses. Or maybe it's inspired by Covid19 and every second it gives a debuff to all nearby that slowly drops HP (and those can infect others the same way). I have an more evil version, instead of being a debuff itself, it just transfers all the debuffs you have to everyone nearby you.
@Xzait said in Map clarity:
I didn't see any need to quote anything, coz it seemed like the majority of everything you had posted was about how a players knowledge of the game shouldn't give them an advantage over a player that knows nothing about the game.
Well then maybe you should quote where I said that "a players knowledge of the game shouldn't give them an advantage over a player that knows nothing about the game". My point, which was specified multiple times from the beginning of the thread is that the main group who benefits from obstacles not being shown on maps are the gankers who camp the same spot all day every day and the last thing this game needs is to make ganking easier.
That it doesn't tie into a horizontal progression game, despite it being the only possible advantage in a horizontal progression game other than a player having gear vs not having gear
I see that now you also added gear. Anyway, I explained this already... and you're wrong.
And in my little scenario of League of Legends, I specifically stated that it was a 1 v 1 with the same character and same gear, being evenly matched. That the game CAN be played as a 5 v 5 has nothing to do with it. I even pointed out that it isn't the best example of a game. The was the entire reason i broke it down to extremely specific parametres for the match.
First, you didn't specify anything. Second, in the post above I explained why this comparison is completely pointless for Fractured because fair 1v1 pvp will be very rare. If you agree as well that it's irrelevant, why did you post it in the first place?
PS: By the way, this is what I am talking about:
. Basically, all your party gets fast mounts, high mobility and CC skills and spreads over an area. When one sees a target, they announce on discord and all the party comes to their position. Your buddies come, you kill those guys and at the end of the day you split the loot. Of course, from time to time you might run into a proper party (with tank and healer) that your ganking group cannot take, but they can't kill you either because they can't catch you. These guys will obviously know the area by heart because they are there every day. This is the group of people that gets the most advantage from maps not showing ledges. I ganked and was ganked a lot in Albion and in my opinion, this advantage is not necessary.
If you have an advantage and you're bad, it doesn't mean you don't have that advantage anymore...
A zerg who is utterly unsuccessful doesn't work in a full loot game, not only because people get mad and leave but also because it's financially unsustainaible. In fact, there's a lot of nuance about zvz: you want people to always listen to the shotcaller (and don't run away even if it turns out to be a suicide mission which will help other group achieve some objective). In the same time, you want them to bring good enough gear. You also don't want them to loot bodies (because it often leads to drama - X stayed back and looted a bunch of bodies, while Y was in the frontline and couldn't loot anything), especially when you're still fighting. Big guilds solve this by having standard zvz guild-approved gear (for different classes) and a small group of people tasked with looting everything and storing it in the guild chest. If someone dies in a CTA, their gear will be replaced by the guild. The recruiters also make sure to recruit a proportionate number of each role.
being in a zerg guild could mean they lose 1v1 more often. i've seen that happen in games where the group can do well but the solo-quad often get beat by solo-quad. their only strength is quantity not quality.
All guilds that wish to have even a little bit of influence have to have strong zergs. And there absolutely is quality in a zerg, especially if the game is aoe-heavy. But I agree with you - most likely these people will not be very good in 1v1. On the other hand, the guilds will be hundreds of people strong. There is no reason to play solo unless you absolutely want to (I never played Albion solo after being in a guild - there were always activities I could join).
Guilds/alliances having unlimited number of players will probably have as side effect demon planet as being way more peaceful than some people think (basically Mercia in Albion). There will only be a handful of alliance which will control vast territories. If there are gankers inside, they will be dealt with quickly. If there's a big zvz going on, everyone will be announced on discord and there'll be a CTA.
@Xzait
It would be easier if you quoted what I said to know the full context. I will assume you argue with the part I said that there are other advantages than player skill and bonusses to raw stats.
If so, comparing a mmo with a 5v5 arpg is just wrong. First of all, if you duo with your buddy, you might be ganked by 4-8 people. In the same light, if you have a 30 active people guild, you can't really zvz a 100 active people guild. So there, player count matters. Then it's of course the financial part of the game. If you're in a top guild, you will have access to expensive resources. You don't have to be particularly good to get recruited, but you have to be very active because the important thing in a zvz is to be there and listen to the shotcaller. How early you started playing might also be a factor here: if you start from day one, you might have some expensive collectibles or a chance of owning a house in a good place or a crafting station in a good town.
@Jetah
For 1v1 you are obviously right, but I tend to ignore anything under 5v5 when it affects more popular or impactful forms of pvp, especially when it's a decision which directly buffs ganking.
In ZvZ, multiple characters focus a single target; or, if the game is aoe-heavy, then tanks go in and CC whoever they can and the dps rain nukes on them.
@Phylosophys
As @Jetah said, we don't know.
My assumption is that those are going to have short effects (2-5sec for CC, up to 20sec for walls) which will mostly help in ganks (by blocking paths offscreen) and in zvz (as a big aoe CC). Either way, in my opinion, unless they block a path for a very long period of time, these obstacles shouldn't be marked on the map.
@Jetah
You don't necessary have to plan a route in advance, as long as you get accustomed to reading maps you will be able to not get yourself trapped by pressing M from time to time. In fact, if they implement mounts gallop and autorun, being able to read maps on the go will pretty much make the difference between surviving and getting killed when ganked.
i dont see how a mobility skill will sacrifice a combat stat. we have a limited number of skill slots but if you can't disengage or gap close then you'll lose most fights. there's the gif of the earth wall going to and the person jumping over it. i expect to see that a lot.
In short, nuke+utility deals less damage than nuke without utility. I didn't say a mobility skill (and I agreed that even in zvz you will have one engage/disengage skill, most likely a speed buff tho); I said a high mobility build. Anyway, what scale of pvp are you talking about here?
No map at all would be a game changer. I don't know how I feel about that, but t's probably going to be one of the top complaining reasons.
@Gothix
I already explained that I got it a long time ago, but I was pointing out your first reply was not in line with your others. We're over this. I explained what kind of players will be advantaged in what kind of situations by this "feature" (from my point of view) and I asked for your opinion 2 posts ago.
@asspirin
Thanks. I wonder how much they will last, how many traps a demon can set, either if the enemies will see them or not and if mounts will have gallop and skills. I wish the devs would talk more about features that explain their vision about the scale of this game.
@Jetah
It makes sense to use a high mobility build if you plan to chase (ganking), escape (when transporting, and don't forget we have mounts and probably dismounting mechanics) or skirmish (solo-trio players; least common situation). In everything else, a disengage skill will be pretty much mandatory, but other than that high mobility means sacrificing other combat stat. Now, of course that holding a chokepoint will be a huge advantage in zvz, but zergs have scouts. Realistically, gankers are the group who get the most advantage from leaving maps this way.
A lot of games are advertised as solo-friendly (including Albion), but good luck gathering or farming any high level spot not controlled by your alliance.
PS: You also raised an important point - will the game have traps that we can place on the ground for ganking?
@Gothix
... Again, what you said is pretty clear,
"Knowledge SHOULD give you advantage. Not only avatar knowledge, but "player" knowledge as well."
Anyway, as I said, I was just pointing out the funny thing in that post, I'm not interested in further discussion about this, so let's drop it. What I'm interested about is the bold part addressed to you in post 33, which you completely ignored. What are your thoughts on that?
@Jetah
Balance means an even distribution of something. Giving somebody an advantage without taking anything back without a good justification it's not balance imo.
I played Eve Online. nothing will ever be as sandbox and gank heaven than that game.
Then some of your posts here are even more interesting. I'm especially talking about the posts where you encourage features aimed at solo players. After playing a game which is basically the pinnacle of sandbox economy you should understand that regardless of what the devs do, locks most of the content will be locked from solo players. So, do you just argue with people for the sake of arguing?
Anyway, going back to the thread - Eve online is very slow paced game, in which chasing and trapping targets in map obstacles are not a big part of ganking. By the impressions I got from playing Fractured so far, I feel it will be more similar to UO and Albion in this regard.
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@Xzait
You have examples where passages are not accounted for on the maps in the first post.
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@Gothix
First of all, read your own post.
@Gothix said in Map clarity:
Knowledge SHOULD give you advantage.
Not only avatar knowledge, but "player" knowledge as well.
This is contradictory to your HORIZONTAL POWER PROGRESSION posts from other threads. That's what I pointed out.
Second, advantages comes in a lot of forms, not only in raw stats and player skill. Maps don't really help in pvp, but they play a big part in ganking. I think that being able to read maps quickly is a valuable skill (especially for gatherers). If your argument for not having proper maps is to buff gankers, then I disagree because ganking on the same map every day until you can navigate without pressing M is a big enough advantage, compared to their targets who have to periodically check the map (press M) while being chased. I don't think you need to further handicap the targets.
Haha, that's interesting. In the thread we were talking about grind you said that knowledge shouldn't give advantage because this is a horizontal progression game and now you say that knowledge should in fact give advantage. So how is it?
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Anyway, there are some people who never played a full loot pvp game before yet come and give opinions about how stuff should be. No problems with that, but the thing is some of the suggestions translate in frustrating gameplay. Not being able to read the map is one. You see, I don't go to an upcoming FPS game forums and claim camera should randomly move to a certain direction to simulate how soldiers get scared in battle. In the same light, please install Albion (it's f2p now), play it for one month in the black zone and decide for yourself if some of the features you are requesting for Fractured are actually as cool as you imagined. With this occasion you will also understand how player dynamics work in these games: ganking, zvz, market-flipping, monopolies, how alts affect the game, why solo is not really a viable option, why you need to be able to dispute spots, how does the economy work, how would mounted combat affect the game, how much most of the long term players care about exploration and roleplay.
@Jetah
"balance is giving <...> advantages to [a certain group of people]"
Have a nice day, Jetah!
PS: In this light, tomorrow we'll argue that people in parties shouldn't be able to use abilities.